this just popped up while I was listening to NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95788997
Not exactly ground breaking or full of much info for those already versed, but still was a pleasant surprise.
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my kid can paint that
I don’t get the appeal of listening to noise as “performed” or “recorded”.
If someone’s “trying to tell [me] something”, aren’t they already claiming a pretentious bent that’s best served by classic modes of artistic expression?
Is it that they can’t write structured music of some appeal, or, if so, present it in a competent fashion, due to lack of performing skill, or inability to form a group with like-minded and relatively accomplished musicians?… so must attract attention by presenting either random muddle masquerading as statement, or planned aural provocation which, however haphazardly, is orchestrated, which seems to be an inauthentic approach to the concept of “noise”?
Am I pigeonholing noise as “random” and shouldn’t? Why, if you can construct something, would you choose to deconstruct? What’s the point if you never made a point to counter?
Did anyone notice that the
Did anyone notice that the first comment is from our good friend Wade?
The idea that sounds defined as ‘noise’ can function as music is now 100 years old, having been initiated by the Italian futurists. Cage expanded on it in the 1930s.
There is a lot of pretentious crap out there parading as ‘noise’. There are also occasionally works of genius.
Better...
[quote=Kapn]
I don’t get the appeal of listening to noise as "performed" or "recorded".
If someone’s "trying to tell [me] something", aren’t they already claiming a pretentious bent that’s best served by classic modes of artistic expression?
Is it that they can’t write structured music of some appeal, or, if so, present it in a competent fashion, due to lack of performing skill, or inability to form a group with like-minded and relatively accomplished musicians?… so must attract attention by presenting either random muddle masquerading as statement, or planned aural provocation which, however haphazardly, is orchestrated, which seems to be an inauthentic approach to the concept of "noise"?
Am I pigeonholing noise as "random" and shouldn’t? Why, if you can construct something, would you choose to deconstruct? What’s the point if you never made a point to counter?
[/quote]
Better stick to Marshall Crenshaw.
ah, sound...
[quote=Kapn]If someone’s "trying to tell [me] something", aren’t they already claiming a pretentious bent that’s best served by classic modes of artistic expression?[/quote]
why does artistic expression have to be "best served by classic modes of artistic expression"?
[quote=Kapn]Is it that they can’t write structured music of some appeal, or, if so, present it in a competent fashion, due to lack of performing skill, or inability to form a group with like-minded and relatively accomplished musicians?… so must attract attention by presenting either random muddle masquerading as statement, or planned aural provocation which, however haphazardly, is orchestrated, which seems to be an inauthentic approach to the concept of "noise"?[/quote]
well, that’s the downside of labelling; calling this movement "noise" does nothing for anyone.
I think the article pointed out that its a rejection of pop and rock music. But, more so, it’s not "music" at all and shouldn’t be even considered in those terms. This might sound pretentious, but it might be better categorized alongside painting and sculpture rather than as traditional music. In fact, most shows I’ve been to are more like gallery openings than rockshows (many are even held in galleries).
[quote=Kapn]Am I pigeonholing noise as "random" and shouldn’t?[/quote]
No, not in this case. The sounds in this article are made by kids, and the idea of purely random live soundmaking for them is as fresh as punk rock was to me when I was 14. We may not dig it because it’s purely random and unstructured, but it works for them. (I’d be curious to see what these kids are doing with sound in 5-10 years!)
the article closes with "Noise fans want to be challenged, and that’s the main difference between pop music and noise music. Without comfortable lyrics or a predictable groove, the mind works a little harder." This is backed up by current cognitive research that says in order to keep forming new neural pathways, the brain *must* continue learning and doing completely new and abstract things; which ultimately helps fend off mental illness and alzheimers in old age, etc. And isn’t that the same ol’ core of any youth movement: to remind us that we must keep moving forward into new terratories?
nailed that
[quote=Herb Tarlick]There is a lot of pretentious crap out there parading as ‘noise’. There are also occasionally works of genius. [/quote]
Thank you, sir.
It's all CRAP!
I like noise when it is seeming to be trying to communicate something. When it is constructed, and contains elements of a culture, somewhat recognizable, as well as an emotional overlay. Like The Boredoms, or The Gories.
Boredoms Blow
There, I said it.
(Edit…last I knew, anyway. Hated ‘em at the Nirvana show)
Does the "noise movement" include the strange noisiness of Radiohead albums? The blip-beeps of electronica? The Moogulators? Are we talking about "soundscapes?" Sometimes I like that stuff, it’s like futuristic exotica. I don’t care much for most of the actual exotica stuff though. Well, I guess some of it’s all right, but a little bit of screaming toucan goes a long way.
Music without rhythm is the
Music without rhythm is the worst kind of music and is also known as The Most White. I like hooks that get stuck in my brain not brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr that pushes me away. Also dig collage music but that’s because I’m smarmy and had a Max Headroom childhood.
Noise bands are joke bands for people with Master’s Degrees.
Suddenly this thread has reminded me of Hatebeak, the death metal band with a parrot lead singer.
from the article:"There’s
from the article:
"There’s an intention behind it, and I’m trying to tell you something," Patterson says. "If you take the time to get into it, the rewards will be so much more than listening to something that’s already been laid out for you."
Noise fans want to be challenged, and that’s the main difference between pop music and noise music. Without comfortable lyrics or a predictable groove, the mind works a little harder.
I thought that the best part about music was listening to it. Lowbrow me, how past 160,000 years and the origin of humans of me, music is now meant to be thought about! At least you can keep your Thinking Noise Records sealed for resale since listening is now secondary to thinking.
Time for me to listen to Chrome’s Half-Machine Lip Moves and feel something that I would describe as good but I haven’t thought about it too much.
Challenge this
I guess mathrock has gotten too passe for these folks
Maybe they’re on to something though, perhaps the time is right to stop entertainng and to start challenging your audiences. My hopes are that the NRP will perform a show and force everyone to write a short essay on the global economy before they can leave the venue.
….or maybe arm wrasslin
Music is meant to both
Music is meant to both listened to and thought about. Perhaps that is the essential issue here. It is surprising to hear from you, Ulysses, a person who takes very thoughtful and profound stances on politics, the social aspects of culture, and what-not, such a harshly anti-intellectual stand when it comes to music. Yes, three chords and a melody you can hum along with may work for a lot of folks, but don’t trash and write off those of us who may be looking for more.
I can only tell my own story. I first heard Bach (the 3rd Brandenburg concerto, to be exact) at age 13. Prior to that it had mostly been Top 40 radio. I don’t know what it was but there was something there I really dug. I also remember in junior high going on a school trip to a concert of Medieval and Renaissance music and being blown away. I started checking out records from the Jackson Public Library and one thing led to another. Bach, Telemann, Vivaldi, Handel, and then at some point around the same time hearing for the first time music of Charles Ives, John Cage, Morton Feldman, Aaron Copland and other 20th century composers and feeling that ‘this is what I am looking for.’ I remember even at that time trying to explain how this music was affecting me to family and friends only to be mocked and belittled for it.
In high school I still enjoyed classical music but moved more into art rock, you know Yes, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson, etc. I also discovered Brian Eno and David Bowie around this time, two huge influences that have both stayed with me. Also, as an avid listener of NPR I heard things like Javanese gamelan music and avant-garde electronic music (WUOM was way more adventurous in those days).
I heard the Ramones in high school (1976 to be exact, another story for another time) and although they didn’t immediately blow me away, over time and definitely by the time I was at WMU in the late 70s I had gotten into the punk and new wave (probably more of the arty new wave than the dirty punk) in addition to quite a bit of off kilter mainstream type stuff (the Cars, Cheap Trick, Tom Petty, etc)
Then, in 1980, came hardcore. It was the energy and noise of hardcore that attracted me at first (actually Michigan bands like the Fix and Necros at first), making it for me almost like avant-garde punk. Violent Apathy came out of that, and the initial artiness (I don’t know how else to describe it) of early hardcore became kind of a parody, another uniform, another style, what have you. That time period really soured me as hardcore became just more and more derivative and more and more closed off and just stupid. I think a lot of my disdain for most of the neo-punk stuff comes from this time period. Taste fascists like MRR, etc.
In 1984 I started at WIDR. That is when I really began to put it all together. I discovered modern jazz and again was blown away. I started listening to all kinds of music I had rejected because it wasn’t ‘hardcore’. I got back into classical music. There was also in the US and elsewhere a pretty powerful independent rock movement that took the energy and think for yourself attitudes of early hardcore and made something very worthwhile from it. Minutemen, Mission of Burma, Big Black, etc. I even began to appreciate that people could make interesting sounds with non-musical elements. I got into electronic music, both the more pop-oriented kind (Meat Beat Manifesto, The Anti Group, stuff like that) as well as stuff from the ‘classical’ tradition and sometimes yes pure noise. I found out about dub. Music of other cultures, Africa, Asia, etc. I have come across so much interesting music over the past 25 years or so that I couldn’t possibly put it all down in a post here. I am very lucky to have friends who I can share some of this with, mostly however it is often a solitary journey.
I don’t think anyone has to agree with what I like in music or why I like it but yes in addition to listening to music I think about it a lot. Like Etaoin said, it does open up pathways in the brain and new connections emerge, both emotionally and intellectually.
I hate music/I like noise -
I hate music/I like noise - The Mad
I love noise in music. I like music that’s labelled noise. I like music that’s noisy - intentionally or unintentionally. How sounds go together is more important to me than structure. I genuinely like squalls of noise. It sounds good to me. I know it’s not for everyone and I also see no reason to convert people to something I like, i can see why some folks think noise is bullshit but for the people who don’t think it’s bullshit, there’s a lot of great music to hear.
Outside of the "noise" genre, noisiness is a key to a lot of what i like in other genres. Take the Bomb Squad’s production values for instance. A record like "It takes a Nation of Millions…" is so noisy and that’s a huge appeal. Or take micro-house with all the clicks and hisses.
Noise is also psychedelic to me and i guess what i consider to be psychedelic is pretty broad.
Ouch
“Noise bands are joke bands for people with Master’s Degrees.” (Ulysses)
That one stung a little, but I am a white lady with a master’s and I played in an experimental band…so I guess I fit that profile, yeah. *Wince* (I still love Mr. Ulysses.)
For the record, I enjoy all kinds of music, art, and experiments. Playing music with people like Brent G., Tom D., Mike S., Mike H., Todd C., Blaine T., Kurt D., made me grow as a musician and, more important in my book, as a person. I came from a classical background and learned how to improv—influenced by Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Eric Dolphy, Pharoah Sanders, Yusef Lateef for starters, and then later by other modern composers such as the ones Herb discussed so well above. I learned how to take risks. Sometimes the experiment worked and we made something interesting or maybe briefly beautiful; sometimes we failed BIG TIME, ha ha. We were earnest, though.
This was a huge period of awareness and awakening for me. I certainly wasn’t doing it to make people unhappy or sad by hurting their ears. I just wanted to see what else I could do. Now, I hope to learn how to play drums and just make some rocky rock. It’s all good in my book.
CHROME!
[quote=Ulysses S. Eater]
Time for me to listen to Chrome’s Half-Machine Lip Moves and feel something that I would describe as good but I haven’t thought about it too much.
[/quote]
ok, sorry to derail my own thread here, but holy fuck: you guys have TEN DAYS to get to chicago to see Chrome at the Cobra Lounge.
meanwhile, I just torrented an ‘81 show at the Mabuhay Gardens in SF. Soundboard to boot! wheee!
now: back to discussing noise!
Every Rose Has It's Thorn
I suppose if I try I usually find something I like in every genre of music. It’s just that with noise it’s too painful for me to sift through the bad to find the good, it’s the same way for me with Jazz and gankster rap. Aw skrew this.
Too Much Oprah
Play some Skynard!
would love to see Chrome
would love to see Chrome even if Damon is deader than shit.
Damon Edge died in Los Angeles the summer of 1995 at an early age. The official cause of death was heart failure. Apparently distraught over his break up with Fabiene Shine, Damon had become an obese shut-in, drinking heavily. He lay dead in his apartment for almost a month before being discovered.
www.staticwhitesound.com/chrome/history.htm
If people make/listen to unlistenable non-music because it annoys people, sure, fine, g’head with your bad selves. I got three Happy Flowers LP’s.
If people want to impress their friends and become the Uber non-Music, music fan, good for you! Your knowledge of the unlistenable is precious.
If people are tired of music because it’s too musical and like music, by all means listen to sounds that aren’t music when you’re getting stoned. Or silence! Their new double cassette of nothing speaks to me personally and they got a decent review in Steven Hawkings’ bi-annual recipe circular.
If people think that not having rules in music is a bodacious way to be different, great. Good noise music can be judged with the same non-criteria as bad noise music. It can’t. There’s no way to tell the difference because it’s so gosh fucking darn WEIRD. don’t throw any musical rules on my non-music bro, but please come out to my show at a venue and purchase our merchandise. We’re not that fucking ground-breaking and hating and expanding the rules of music to not charge $10 for a limited edition CDR that’s gonna be reviewed in Forced Exposure.
Just don’t champion listening to noisy non-music because it supposedly makes you smarter and more intellectual.
Andy Kaufman is still alive and he could drop a 2 year long recording of symphonic standard poodles farts of ancient texts and somebody smarter than you would totally be down with it because Thurston Moore wore the noise band’s t-shirt.
I do love noisy music and thinking about music but I love enjoying music the most. Chrome and Drunks With Guns have been making me smile lots the past year.
cum on feel the noize
[quote=Ulysses S. Eater]Just don’t champion listening to noisy non-music because it supposedly makes you smarter and more intellectual.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but I think that my sighting cognitive neural research was mistaken here. I did not mean to imply that if you listen to noise that your intelligence will grow. I’m sorry if that is how it came across. What I did mean to imply is that, for those that like to make and listen to noise "music", that is -for them- helping to forge new neural pathways.
I really do think that this specific type of art we are talking about should not be considered "music". Every time I hear someone complain about "noise" "music", they almost always are imposing musical rules and structure on it. It might seem silly to some that mere words are to blame here, but -again- if you consider it "sound sculpture" or something without "music" in the title, then maybe it might help you approach it? And, again, the word "noise" is negative, and automatically turns people off.
But, I’m not trying to force it on anyone that isn’t into it… why force someone to like cubism when they like romanticism, dig? it is, to me, an interesting topic to think about and discuss.
I can dig that.
I can dig that. Sometimes you can "catch a glimpse" of music in the strangest places. Repetition makes it obvious, but sometimes random sounds sort of bump into each other and suddenly sound interesting. More interesting than they did on their own. To me, Interesting sounds are a kind of music, even if they can’t really be called "songs."
When you get a chance, listen to this episode of WNYC’s Radiolab. It’s really cool, and explains some of this far better than I ever could.
In fact, I highly recommend subscribing to the Radiolab podcast and listening to all of them. Best. Podcast. Ever. (except SWAG, maybe…)
me too can dig
I frequently hear stuff described as "noise" as unrepentantly musical. Not always. It is how I hear it. Blips, screeches, feedback, pulses, throbs…it SOUNDS good to me. I try to accept it at the simplest level I can. Does it sound good? Perhaps they are intricate soundscapes that swarm thru my mind and open previously undiscovered neural networks…. maybe, don’t really care, I suppose. If it pops the synapses, then hot damn. Years ago, when I was arguing with a friend about the merits of Sun Ra (afore I became a believer), I simply could not wrap my head around the Arkestra and all of its later squalls of noise. My friend simply said that listening to "difficult" music makes all the other stuff that isn’t difficult sound almost unbearably sweet. I took that as an indictment of simpler, song based music. However, he reframed it by saying that the simpler stuff is "sweet…. not in a pejorative sense, but sweet… like ice cream". Challenging oneself with the "hard" stuff, makes the "easy" stuff sound even better.
sometimes the difficult sounds are sweet
[quote=Mr. Jass]
My friend simply said that listening to "difficult" music makes all the other stuff that isn’t difficult sound almost unbearably sweet. [/quote]
Not to mention that sometimes there are nuggets of sweetness embedded in the difficult sounds (this often occurs in the music of Sun Ra, like where it goes from skronk to swing to exotica and back) and also to some of us it is the difficult sounds that sound sweet in the first place. We are all wired a little differently from each other and it is that individual combination of learning and exposure that causes us to be predisposed to like certain sounds or to like them increasingly over time.
Hope it wasn't me
that gave this impression:
“Just don’t champion listening to noisy non-music because it supposedly makes you smarter and more intellectual.”
Though to be fair, I strive to be smarter as much as possible—not to “lord it over” people, but to satisfy an internal meter of achievement. And honestly, I don’t hang around people who would let anyone get away with much intellectual snobbery. Passionate exchange of ideas, yes—bombastic buffoonery, not so much.
juxtaposition
[quote=Tree]I can dig that. Sometimes you can "catch a glimpse" of music in the strangest places. Repetition makes it obvious, but sometimes random sounds sort of bump into each other and suddenly sound interesting. More interesting than they did on their own. To me, Interesting sounds are a kind of music, even if they can’t really be called "songs."[/quote]
nicely put, sir. that’s exactly how I look at it. it’s random at times, and like herb pointed out, mostly crap. but, it’s really nice when it does work…
you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!
I’m really thankful for this thread - it’s reinforced what I like about “noise” in music (or noisiness, found sound, collages, etc.), as well as reinforced my strong feelings for music as best chance for freedom and release, masquerading as loose fun, even tho’ it follows the rules (UE posts). I am sticking to Marshall Crenshaw, but know he’d never pull off “Revolution #9”.
ES, I agree, it’s exciting to be reminded about the young idea the new noise makers are pushing, and indeed, if it’s best recognized as some kind of art happening, or theater, there’s your classic modes of artistic expression.
I made noise in one line-up of Goat, not to mention, Dusty and Tree and JC and Dadmin have had to endure my in-the-moment worship of whatever “whoa, dude” emissions were emanating from my equipment, begging me to “stretch out” (and I have been called out)… so I’m not a stranger to the appeal of noise.
Fact is, I don’t usually want to hear noise, unless (as exemplified by Becky and crew) it’s making that magic that isn’t the “mostly crap” variety (so, best heard live). If I’m not interested in revisiting, let’s say, the noise I perpetrated, I have to question if I’m enjoying my noise making mostly because - and I say this as a musician who’d much rather play Marshall Crenshaw covers, as they lead to Buddy Holly covers - I enjoy being perverse and want to annoy the audience out of their minds, more than wanting to find some pure communal moment that unstructured sound production can provide unexpectedly. Alienate vs. invite.
To paraphrase that cranky music school prof in Fame - when is it music and when is it masturbation?
I’m going to go on the
I’m going to go on the record and state that I’m against learning and I promote a totally awesome philistine lifestyle. Richard says it all the time and he reads the Times every day so it must be true. The problem with not being smart enough to get music (improv jazz) is double edged because you can be too smart to listen to music. "I’m too smart to dance and have a good time, no electro or hip-hop for me holmes."
I’m going to have to listen to my Negativland n Skinny Puppy records and the Forbidden Planet soundtrack to remind myself that I actually do enjoy some noisy, sometimes non-musical sounds. Move over Baby Genius: Mozart, here comes Baby Genius: Neubauten! I love Skinny Puppy, just got done listening to 10 videos on youtube. My significant other tells me to turn that shit the fuck off when I get the itch. Good thing I didn’t see them at The State when I was 14 or I’d probably be real skinny right now. Fuck, I need to score Skinny Puppy’s Last Rights on vinyl, fucking promo only booshit! <- that track right there is what I think of when I think of beautiful noise, like blue whales sippin on some sizzurp or folding spacetime in a Herbert novel. I had that shit on tape.
Also, looking to score early Abwärts and other German noisy punky stuff. And some Bruce Haack vinyl under 50 billion pesos.
Truth be told, I really dig smart people playing dumb music (Drunks With Guns, I can’t stop being obsessed with it like"Bloodbath" from their first) AND I love passionate, heartfelt stuff being performed by people that can barely hold a song together at the same time and surely don’t have the chops nor the years of musical theory to write gems but somehow make something interesting to mine ears. I’m thinking The Scrotum Poles - Helicopter Honeymoon for sure and Sema 4 - Up Down Around is the jam. UK stuff from 80 or 81.
Noise.
Inspired
This has been a great conversation. I feel a little sheephish kinda like Bill splitting hairs regarding his penis crime but I think I need a better def of noise as I only read this thread before posting my first post which was a bit knee-jerky. So I went back and listened to the orig article and the 2 cuts from that guys ‘band’ and it wasn’t all that bad. Not the kind of thing I’d throw on on a Sunday afternoon but not as horrid as several things I’ve heard. Nope, the most repelling thing to me was the arrogance I projected on the guy who dared me to enjoy his music. Funny thing is that to me is that I keep coming back to the notion of the challenge… It’s true I’ve enjoyed several things that might be thought of as noise. Do the Moogulators fit in here? how about the C.O.C.K. Cage show(s)? The difference there to me was that I felt "Invited" in to enjoy the moment with them, not challenged. This could be heavely coloured by my perception of the presentation. I wonder if that guy at the Cage show felt "invited" to come along for the sonic ride, or if his girlfriend guilted him in to getting some ‘culture’? Not being very familiar with the material I wondered if it was part of the show.
Still I keep coming back to "The Challenge" and what it means—or can mean—to be challenged with music, and I am inspired to do 2 things and you’re all invited. *edit* whether or not anything actually comes from this inspiration will be part of the challenge *
I think the point to me on
I think the point to me on this thread is that it is pointless for me to argue about music with my friends (or probably anyone for that matter). Comes back to my good friend Mr. Haydon and his wisdom in saying ‘hey you might wanna check this out’ or ‘hey I’ll try to check that out’ or ‘I’m probably not gonna check that out’. My arguing about music has too often bled into my adolescent inferiority complexes and my stupid bitterness about living in a small town. These things then get projected onto people that have absolutely nothing to do with the bitterness and who in fact are often working hard in their own ways to make said small town more interesting. It is far better for me to be a champion of what I like (and maybe convert someone along the way or at least maybe expose folks to alternate possibilities) than to be defined only by what I don’t like. It gets tired and tiring.
Your music sux.
Case closed.
P.S. I LIKE JAZZ. RAMONES!
—your radio friend, Bat Guano
Screw you Herb!
Screw you Herb, you Jackson County hillbilly! Why doncha go listen to JACKSON Browne or something? You know you love him.
And don’t think we don’t know that Jackson MI is not only the birthplace of YOU, but is also considered by many to be THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY! Yeah, that’s right, infiltrator, we all know that they held the first Republican convention there in July of 1854, which I believe is the same year that you were borned!
sound is cool
I think the point here is how cool sound is. it can be arranged into rhythm and melody or into texture. it can be a structured song, a song with a chaotic part in the middle or end, or it can be ambient texture that ranges from annoying feedback to pretty textural atmosphere. it’s up to you, and what you want to let sound be.
timh said "Noise is also psychedelic to me and i guess what i consider to be psychedelic is pretty broad."
and that, to me, sums it up. psychedelic, to me, is something that can transport you out of the here and now. Sound, not just music, can do that for a brief amount of time. It’s nice to be put into a simple moment in history in the Appalachians by a Dolly and Porter song… it’s nice to sit down and listen to a juxtaposition of sound textures that you’ve never heard before and let it take you somewhere new. It’s up to you what you will let sound do for you.
Under the oaks
[quote=Tree]
Yeah, that’s right, infiltrator, we all know that they held the first Republican convention there in July of 1854, which I believe is the same year that you were borned!
[/quote]
I was actually a 20 year old delegate at that convention. Went with my ‘Uncle’ John McCain.
closing argument
[quote=Bat Guano]
Case closed.
P.S. I LIKE JAZZ. RAMONES!
—your radio friend, Bat Guano
[/quote]
I think that just about sums it up.
less than or equal to kk null
Ramones > onion rings > noise > sweatpants > ditto machines > McCain > improv jazz > onions > torture
maynayze frosted cake < vinyl
poop stories = godhead
ken burns 101
Improv jazz? I thought all jazz involved improvisation….
I Said Case Closed!
If you don’t like jazz, you don’t like America. Wynton Marsailis and Stanley Crouch will tell you so.
—your radio friend, Bat Guano
Do you mean