anytime….
my friend carlos and i had a discussion about the smiths….
it was then that i realized that there isnt one…..not one…smiths song i dont love…
i know all the words….and it warms my heart everytime i hear them….
carlos decided the only crap smiths song…..meat is murder….i disagree…but im gay that way….
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johnny marr
johnny marr doesn’t get his due. the guy is brilliant. he has the chops…he has his signature sound that is unmistakably him everytime you hear it. not many guitarists can make that claim…jimi, the edge, david gilmour, eddie van halen…
in addition to being a great guitarist he co-wrote all of those great smiths songs that you mention above.
finally, he plays on neil finn records. i won’t mention that other higher profile gig he’s got going now.
The Smiths were real punk
The Smiths were real punk rock. The direct descendents of the Sex Pistols and Buzzcocks. Alienation. What it means to be different. Their later stuff is not as hot but Hatful of Hollow is way up there for me.
Never got the Smiths…
Never got the Smiths… prolly never will. That’s my cross.
Then again, no one loves Sloan like I do.
Good and Bad
Fantastic guitars. Wonderfully charismatic and intriguing front man. However, the death of rhythm and groove and syncopation in modern rock can be directly atttributed to the weak-ass rhythm sections of the Smiths, U2 and R.E.M.
Oh thems fightin words!
Oh thems fightin words!
Really?
I always thought The Smiths has a great rhythm section.
U2 & REM? Not so much, but I like ‘em both a lot.
I should recant a bit. I do
I should recant a bit. I do like Johnny Marr.
Them Brits
[quote=Tree]
I always thought The Smiths has a great rhythm section.
U2 & REM? Not so much, but I like ‘em both a lot.
[/quote]
The Smiths’ rhythm section is def better than U2’s and R.E.M.’s. However, I would argue that British rhythm sections in general started a long decline beginning in the mid 80s, with the fall of post-punk. This coincides with the rise of electronic dance music in Europe and England. British indie pop and rock (diff from American indie) is for the most part a conscious rejection of this EDM movement. And once rock music split from dance music that meant theBrits most interested in rhythm, in making sound really move, started picking up turntables and samples instead of basses and drums.
Of course...
Of course, there are exceptions. It’s just a theory.
Punk & the Smiths
[quote=Herb Tarlick]
The Smiths were real punk rock. The direct descendents of the Sex Pistols and Buzzcocks. Alienation. What it means to be different. Their later stuff is not as hot but Hatful of Hollow is way up there for me.
[/quote]
I see where you’re coming from, but I also see the Smiths as quite different from punk rock. Punk revived the concept of rock and roll as dance music (albeit violent dance music). The Smiths definitely backed off that idea. It was a diff kind of alienation: more cerebral, less physical.
morrisey definitely brought
morrisey definitely brought some literacy to the sex, alienation and rock n-roll.
Moz Williams Jr
I didn’t like them at first. Had a tough time with the voice, (I must be re-repeating myself here) but I started hanging out with this strange hillbilly guy. He’s was a whisky swilling, pot smoking, serious business music fan, whose 2 all time faves were…
Hank Williams Jr, and The Smiths. (Figure THAT one out!)
He played me everything by both of them, over and over. Eventually, I got it. Got both of them, actually. I mean, I think Hank Jr is a joke now, and has been for a long, long time, but "Hank Williams Jr & Friends" (Featuring Toy Caldwell & Charlie Daniels) and "Whiskey Bent and Hell Bound" are both ass-kicking southern rock classics! HELLS YEAH!
Bocephus
Bocephus made some truly ass-kicking country-rock.
Quantum is WRONG
Punk revived the concept of rock as participatory music. Not as something to stare at and hear as you smoke your goofballs.
What do you get...
Hank Sr.
We're not even diagreeing
[quote=Arthur]
Punk revived the concept of rock as participatory music. Not as something to stare at and hear as you smoke your goofballs.
[/quote]
I don’t think we’re disagreeing. Punks dancing at a Sex Pistols show, hippies dancing at an acid test and ravers dancing at an 808 State gig are all phsycially-based participatory events.
Plus....
[quote=Arthur]
Not as something to stare at and hear as you smoke your goofballs.
[/quote]
Plus…you don’t think this goes on at punk shows? Heroin, speed and cocaine transcend genre and subculture.
inability or choice?
[quote=QuantumNoise]
*snip*… However, the death of rhythm and groove and syncopation in modern rock can be directly atttributed to the weak-ass rhythm sections of the Smiths, U2 and R.E.M.
[/quote]
Where they really weak-ass, or were they going for that sound intentionally? I like to think more of the latter, I never listen to old U2 and think to myself, "…man Larry and Adam are just not pulling their weight here". There’s a sense of urgency, and a vibe of the times. Would you have them play uninspired white boy funk rythms to those songs? I’m just saying that there seemed to be a minimalist thing going on in the early 80’s and I don’t think the Smiths, U2 and R.E.M. succeeded despite the dead weight and poor musicianship of their rythm sections. I always thought that it was a deliberate decision to do something different, it is possible I’m wrong though???
That's a great point...
That’s a great point, O.F.M.G. My criticism definitely betrays my love for rhythm. Strong rhythm is, in my opinion, fundamental to good rock & roll (I’m American!). But I’m not asking these bands to play funk rhythms. I just think U2 is really weak when when it comes to grooves, especially when you compare them to other post-punk bands like Joy Division, This Heat, PiL, Gang of Four (who did play funk rhythms). This is the tradition from which they emerged, and I think they’re clearly a step down in terms of ensemble interplay.
I don’t have liner notes
I don’t have liner notes handy and i’m too lazy to go look them up, but I have to wonder if some of this direction was influenced by the authors of the songs themselves. Take New Years Day for example.. I dearly love that song but I wonder if there isn’t a bit of self-indulgence going on… Ok first I’m going to play piano, then I’m going to riff on guitar while the fabulous mullet romances the ladies… and you two shut up and dont get in the way. *note: speculation… purely speculation
Smiths vs. U2
[quote=OldFatMarriedGuy]
I don’t have liner notes handy and i’m too lazy to go look them up, but I have to wonder if some of this direction was influenced by the authors of the songs themselves. Take New Years Day for example.. I dearly love that song but I wonder if there isn’t a bit of self-indulgence going on… Ok first I’m going to play piano, then I’m going to riff on guitar while the fabulous mullet romances the ladies… and you two shut up and dont get in the way. *note: speculation… purely speculation
[/quote]
And this is where i think the Smiths are way cooler than U2. The Smiths never cared to become a part of the American rock & roll tradition. U2, however, have been obsessed with trying to position themselves as the inheritors of all things American, from Sun Studio to Booker T to Black gospel music. This is why I judge them far more harshly in terms of can they groove or not, because rhythm is a central component to American music. And they don’t got it!
success
and yet very successful with "Rattle & Hum" which I can’t stand for some reason. Still the ‘positioning’ thing I might buy as now a days I tend to think of them as an american band. I wonder where the Smiths would be today had they kept it together? Would I have this love/hate affair with them as i do U2… I think so as I run hot & cold with them as it stands. I disliked U2 at first, then loved them and then disliked them again, then loved them agian. At this point I muster a shrug in their direction as what they’re currently doing hasn’t really done it for me. R.E.M. I consistantly liked for some reason… even when they were out there I was digging it, maybe not understanding it, but digging it none the less.
me thinks the band that out
me thinks the band that out did u2 in trying to position themselves as an american rock band?….rolling stones….blech…..
theres no whiter musice then u2…..
negativland!
[quote=paddle]
theres no whiter musice then u2…..
[/quote]
don’t make me start a "whiter music than U2" list!
yes do start
Yes, do start…that would be great.
And here's the scary thing...
[quote=paddle]
me thinks the band that out did u2 in trying to position themselves as an american rock band?….rolling stones….blech…..
theres no whiter musice then u2…..
[/quote]
I work two jobs where I need to listen to literally hundreds of current indie pop/rock bands from America, and damn near every one sounds like U2 (and by extension Coldplay/Radiohead). Yet many of them are hailed as Americana and folk-rock. There are American musicians who actually think they are getting in touch with the spirit of America when ripping off U2. It’s totally demented. Bono won!
totally not pro-Bono.
totally not pro-Bono. I’m still not educated enough on The Smiths to have an opinion except that after Mo’ sings you’d better get a couple of priests in the hall because that shit will be haunted.
beach boys and flaming lips
that’s some pretty white music there.
achtung baby has it’s ‘grooves’…more so than any other record they did. it’s weird that Brian Eno produced them and all the groove oriented and rhythmic stuff he did with Talking Heads and the now canonized ‘My Life in the Bush of Ghosts’ record, didn’t seem to influence the roaring, soaring u2 sound. i thought they brought him in to make them more groove oriented.
They should’ve went with Nile Rogers.
perfect timing!
Someone snuck a bunch of rare Smiths B-sides and whatnot on eMusic yesterday… under the title “Rare”… I grabbed what I didn’t have… it’s been pulled today… but most of the tracks will show on the 2-disc edition of the upcoming Smiths comp (another one!) Hang the DJ… you vinyl collectors have most of them already… shankly, I’m not disappointed…
Karlos is with Carlos, “Meat is Murder” is the Smiths song I dislike most… left it off the tape I made of a friend’s copy of Smiths LP 2. Also not really a fan of “I Know It’s Over”, “A Rush and a Push”, and, half the time, “Frankly Mr. Shankly”. Also - Hatful of Hollow Peel versions smoke all versions of first LP trax, just as Rank concert versions leave Queen is Dead versions in the dust. Hatful and Rank alone should shut the mouths of those who think the Smiths’ rhythm section couldn’t cut it. Those, and the BBC TV concert recorded about the same time of the first LP.
5 R.E.M. songs that prove the rhythm section were not “weak-ass”: “9-9”, “Windout”, “Second Guessing”, “1,000,000” (live), “Pretty Persuasion”.
5 U2 songs that prove the rhythm section were not “weak-ass”: “Two Hearts Beat as One”, “Fire”, “11 O’Clock Tick Tock” (live), “Like A Song”, “Wire”.
Listening to...
None of those tunes boast a rhythm section anything like that of the Feelies, Fire Engines, Swell Maps, Joy Division and….Sinatras.
Also...
I think what makes the jangle pop of the Clean and the Chills far more compelling than that of R.E.M. is their compelling rhythm sections. The Chills were totally ethereal and gorgeous, yet they made sound move. I’d even put the dBs ahead of R.E.M. in this department.
Eno vs. Coldplay
[quote=steve d]
achtung baby has it’s ‘grooves’…more so than any other record they did. it’s weird that Brian Eno produced them and all the groove oriented and rhythmic stuff he did with Talking Heads and the now canonized ‘My Life in the Bush of Ghosts’ record, didn’t seem to influence the roaring, soaring u2 sound. i thought they brought him in to make them more groove oriented.
They should’ve went with Nile Rogers.
[/quote]
Compared to the dance music of the time (1991) the grooves on Achtung Baby are pretty flaccid. But yeah, they were trying to penetrate the electronica/club scene.
Eno also produced the No New York comp, so yeah, that’s a total head scratcher. Then again, he produced the new Coldplay album. Talk about white.
schizo
[quote=QuantumNoise]
Eno also produced the No New York comp, so yeah, that’s a total head scratcher. Then again, he produced the new Coldplay album. Talk about white.
[/quote]
you can’t hold Eno’s production work against Eno the artist. They’re almost two different people. Eno still releases fairly interesting stuff under his own name; most of that is barely noticed by the mainstream. But he pays his bills buy polishing turds for shitheads like U2 and whatever corporate dolt they send his way. Not a bad position to be in, really.
I don't know...
You really think he only does it for the money? I think there’s a part of him that enjoys the idea of working with the world’s biggest bands. I don’t think he’s merely a hired gun.
Too bad he never got the chance to work with Talk Talk. They were light years ahead of U2 and Coldplay.
eno-ozn
yeah, you’re prolly right that he’s doing it to be hip and hang out with U2. he’s been in the industry that his rose colored glasses have several layers of rose color over the original. still, he keeps the ambient going on the side.
Art Experiment
[quote=Etaoin Shrdlu]
yeah, you’re prolly right that he’s doing it to be hip and hang out with U2. he’s been in the industry that his rose colored glasses have several layers of rose color over the original. still, he keeps the ambient going on the side.
[/quote]
I bet he also sees it as some kind of art experiment. I mean, life itself is an art project for Eno!
oh you headless chickens
can your poor feet take so much kicking?
eno has always worked with the biggest and baddest
bowie was certainly not an unknown commodity when they worked together…neither were the talking heads when they did their trilogy. in a way eno is one of the hardest working men in showbiz…all those solo records and ambient records and he still found time to hit play and record on ‘the joshua tree’.
i love ‘tiger mountain’ and ‘the warm jets’…it’s surprising to me that he doesn’t get more recognition for his own output…
mee, too!
I LOVE LOVE LOVE "Taking Tiger Mountain," "Here Come The Warm Jets," and"Before and AFter Science." I like "Another Green World" okay, but that’s edging more toward the ambient stuff, which is not my cup of tea. It’s okay and all, but nothing I ever really find myself dying to hear. All those early records are amazing, and really have not become the slightest bit dated because they’re so far out there on their own plane.
"Tiger Mountain" in particular seems to have the highest concentration of songs that I find myself absent-mindedly singing out loud on a regular basis. Once he worms his way into your head, you’ll never be rid of it. I’ve wandered around and you’re still here.
el hombre invisible
[quote=steve d]
i love ‘tiger mountain’ and ‘the warm jets’…it’s surprising to me that he doesn’t get more recognition for his own output…
[/quote]
exactly! everyone knows him, every U2 fan knows that he made those records, uh, "good", and there’s tons of squirrelly art music fans (myself) that love his solo stuff. but still, I bet he can walk down the street unnoticed. not a bad position to be in, really.
Paw Paw's blow torch
Eno "composed" the Microsoft start-up and shut down tones, too. I read an interview with him where he said that the experience gave him a new understanding of sonic presentation. He said that he began listening to things in 3 second intervals trying to determine if he could make music that could present a clear statement within that scope.
I’m with Dingey re: the first three solos. I never really swung the ambient bat, so… side 2 of AGW thru the Ambient records slip thru my fingers a bit.
PAW PAW NEGRO BLOWTORCH
It’s based in a true story, you know!
http://istina.rin.ru/eng/ufo/text/310.html
compressed
[quote=Mr. Jass]
Eno "composed" the Microsoft start-up and shut down tones, too. I read an interview with him where he said that the experience gave him a new understanding of sonic presentation. He said that he began listening to things in 3 second intervals trying to determine if he could make music that could present a clear statement within that scope.[/quote]
that’s interesting! like the Residents’ Commercial Album, only shorter! 20 years ago, I obsessed with 8 second reel-to-reel loops. same sorta thing… trying to compress an idea down to that loop. the diff was I’d loop it, and let it play for hours; which then would cause drone and mutation of perception, etc. fun!
eno was/is a big fan of the buddha boxes that were around a few years ago. I recall reading he bought like 8 or 9 of them and had them running in different parts of his house. I sadly only got a couple, but the effect is still solid.
It’s all good. The pop
It’s all good. The pop stuff and the ambient stuff. Different approaches to listening perhaps but the quality is there across the board.
Weird U2 Synchronicity
I just heard the late 80s Roy Orbison tune "She’s a Mystery Girl." It is awesome — the song, performance and production. Roy’s voice was in tip-top shape all the way up to his death. Anyway, the song was written by Bono and the Edge. Now I’m thinking U2 should’ve quit and handed over their Joshua Tree songs to Roy and Eno.
The Big O
That Roy Orbison and Friends concert that was shot in 1987 a year before his death is pretty incredible.
Like you said, his voice is flawless right up until the end. Here he’s leading a band that consists of Tom Waits, Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Elvis Costello, Bonnie Raitt and KD Lang…and they’re really just there for ornamentation…it’s the nuts and bolts of the band the bassist, lead guitarist and drummer that are incredible.
I watch it every time I see it on tv…it’s sounds amazing, it’s tastefully shot in black and white in a small club…and there are some pretty entertaining performances on it. Springsteen in his post ‘USA’ pre ‘tunnel of love’ bolo tie and jacket phase…Tom Waits is just weird with them all, but probably ‘gets’ the big O the most…it just seems like everyone there is having a great time.
the spirit of eno
[quote=QuantumNoise]
Too bad he never got the chance to work with Talk Talk.
[/quote]
Trying to imagine what The Spirit of Eden or Laughing Stock’ might have been with the Eno touch. Ditto Bark Psychosis’ Hex.
I have always been a pretty big Eno fan. I read a review of Another Green World when it came out in Rolling Stone (11th grade, like 1975/76), that and Discreet Music was where I started. Low came out when I was in 12th grade, they were very briefly playing Be My Wife on WRIF. Got the first two solo Eno albums a little later, at WMU. Also I’ve always dug Music For Films, Music For Airports, On Land, and of course the other two Bowie albums (Lodger and Heroes), More Songs About Buildings and Food and Fear of Music (‘til Rich Martini killed ‘em). My Life in Bush of Ghosts is pretty good too. Of course the first two Roxy records just about have it all.
I have never given one shit about U2. There was this fucker who lived in our communal dwelling briefly in I guess early ‘81 and he played that Boy record at 4:00 in the morning one too many times. It was all downhill from there.
I really loved the original (up through say Document) R.E.M. Once you could understand Stipe’s lyrics (and they tried to write ‘anthems’) it was all over.
Radiohead is not Coldplay. They both sell lots of records I suppose but Kid A is probably one of the highest musical moments of my adult life. In Rainbows is pretty f-in good as well. I can’t explain it, it just hits me hard….
Kid A is funny…I remember
Kid A is funny…I remember buying it and thinking, "damn, I haven’t bought a Top 40 album since I was 9." We recently moved, and it fell out, and I almost put it on… maybe I should again? haven’t heard it in years now. To no big surprise, I haven’t been into Radiohead since Kid A; I think the over-saturation factor killed them for me.
to be honest, the first REM ep was "fun" when it came out, and Murmur was also good alt.pop. But, like a sheep, I went to the dreaded REM/Femmes show at the state theater (‘84 or ‘85?) and the highlight was Stipe asking us afterward where he could score heroin. Otherwise, I was bored to death by that show.
Scoring A Heroine/Stipe is a Mumbler
You know Stipe used to mumble a lot back then…A Lot. Are you sure he wasn’t asking where he could score a heroine? as in a kickass superhero girl?
still hasn't found what he was looking for
[quote=steven d]
You know Stipe used to mumble a lot back then…A Lot. Are you sure he wasn’t asking where he could score a heroine? as in a kickass superhero girl? [/quote]
sure. but it appears he’s still looking.